>> thank you, join us tomorrow, good night from new york. neil: all right, i have good news, and some bad news, bad news you know. if you are in top 2%. taxes are going up, good news, maybe not up as much as you feared. welcome i am neil cavuto, it could be just one of those famous trial balloons. but indication today that president obama is a little bit more flexible on the tax hike for the rich, at least than we thought, but he still want to doe i have tdestroy you rich pe,

kidding, he doesn't toupee more but not clinton era more. 38%, that is potentially a significant development, it could be a deal maker, he is why, president says he -- republicans to give in on having rich pay more taxes, republicans could say as least as not as much more. in a sense, it splits the tax revenue difference. there is still a long way from the deal. but clearly sign yet that this president, who has been attacked for not being flexible on spending cuts, by not cutting anybody. what to make of it? tom fanning. and former bush front economic director todd. erin, what are we to make of this? do you get a sent from this,

that this is the making of a middle ground deal? >> i think it is. i was up on capitol hill today. john boehner had a press conference followed one by senate democratic leaders, they were both chest thumping saying neither side of getting closer, but privately they are, republicans know that at some point they are going to have to give in and rates will increase because. democrats are saying they will not concede on raising rates. it is just been announced went last couple minutes that white house put a offer on table a deal that raises $1.6 trillion in revenue, house republicans say no way, they their is a jumping off point where they will begin the negotiations,. neil: you know, tom, people, you are head of one of the largest concerns on planet. so southern company, have you a real concern, no one is talking

about lowering thaing that divid that, go 39.6%. for a lot of folks who invest in your company, that is their lifeblood. >> well, such a mistake, neil, when i think about that, why would the government want to put in place an incentive to introduce people to invest in riskier securities? dividend paying stocks are lower risk than those who are oriented toward capital gains, our shareholder base, average age 63 years old, they help buy our stock to help supplement their retirement income, their income is 77,000 a year, you say they are not subject to this cap, or half they come up with, the fact is, when you increase taxes, on growth capital, like we're talking about. we've seen since the election, a 7% reduction in asset values,

stocks dropped 7 per for those people who rely on the stocks, just as they interthe retirement years that is a mistake. >> todd, maybe you can help me with this but i, always wonder, whether we're just changing our sense of perception, when i -- my first closer, my wife and i a condo we bought, i expected out landish closing costs. and they were just a little bit less out landish, they were still out landish, but since i was picturing them charging me for gdp -- >> did you make a good deal or how did you do? neil: when you base yourself for out landishlily taxes, they are only just higher, then you consider yourself lucky, is that such a big deal? >> it depends, the dividend tax rates if they go from 15 at

upper end to not fle 36 or 49 bo 43-point pour, obamacare raises taxes as a affordable healthcare act. this is a huge problem, tom is ride, at a time, where so many baby boomers are headed into retirement. their financial advisors tell them, as you get older, it is prudent to shave back your investment in equities and stocks and go into bonds, baby boomers are told to be prudent, to sell stocks, you put on top of that a punishing dividend tax rate this is a terrible risk for the equity market. it has been complacent. i do think that a deal will be done. but i don't think that this equity market prepared for a break down in talks, prepared for acrimony that's will come, before a deal is reached. neil: you know, erin, you could

look at it from tom's point of view. warren buffet has gone on record, saying, you know, no good investor he knows is factored in or worried about taxes they look at the -- i guess the appeal of the investment. and tax issue is never an issue. >> he is just a boo boob, that s stois sostupid. neil: erin, do agree. what is he saying. it will not be that bad. >> you know, that is just is not the concern on capitol hill right now, the big fight is they want on make sure -- >> should it be? i think it could be. >> it is huge. >> it could be but, you know right now focus, on capitol hill is on medicare, and where the spinning cuts are come in.

ive is conceding that in some fashion taxes are going up for a big chunk of the group that you talk about. neil: a lot of your colleagues, tom, have said, whatever will affect your business and dividend, and bank stocks and other issues, a deal, is better than no deal, even if eschewed a little bit toward taxes than spending cut its beats reaching the end of the year without a deal, do a agree? >> it is better than going off the financial cliff. but you know, certainty on a dad biel is not good for -- on a bad deal is not good for the american economy. we had a good first quarter, reasonably good second quarter, third quarter, driven with this uncertainty with respect to the election and financial cliff, and the economy ground to a halt, we have a backlog of economic development project in the southeast, 300 projects representing $15 billion of

investment, 45,000 jobs, good paying jobs. those -- >> does that evaporate if dividend taxes go up? >> if we go off the financial cliff, most economists predict another economy growth, there is no reason to move forward. neil: maybe the point for you, better than -- i know where you are coming from. >> let me tell you -- neil, wait could one more point. kicking table economic 48% of our family in southeast make less than $40,000 a year, any increase in taxes that slows the economy would be -- neil: would a cliff be worth it? >> a cliff would be bad short-term, cause a recession, but at least it might do something about getting us focussed on spending, that is

the part of the ledger that congress ignores it is amusing that harry reid talk about republicans, senate controlled by democrats for over a thousand days has not approved a budget. one party could not come on an agreement. neil: who is to blame? >> the president has to preside over the economy. from a political point of view, the president has a big microphone, he is better at the pr. >> do you agree? >> he will be blamed somewhat. a pretty big majority would blame republicans, which is why i think we're seeing some republican movement to accept just rates, they do not want to go off the fiscal cliff, they think they will be blamed. neil: do you get the feeling that i do, this is kabuki

theater, and president with his overtured on rate level, and what they would be, now talking about some spending as part of the deal, that was all factored in. he has just been doing it in stages, we'll get a deal. do you think that is going to happen? >> i think it is a responsible approach. we have to get a dial. this is not a democrat issue or a republican issue, this is an american issue, we know we have to cut spending and we know there has to be some solution. at the end of the day we have on grow the economy. only way out of this thing. >> i think we'll get a deal, i'm not convinced to be done before christmas, i think before the super bowl. but -- >> just punt for 6 months. >> it might happen, i was curious with president and mitt romney having lunch, whether obama presented him a bill for

lunch, and added a 40% gra % gra on it. neil: they had turkey chili. >> let me tell you. one thing we have to do, i work in my 7 industry, we have to figure out a way to do comprehensive tax reform. doing a lot of act before we get there. >> not one major candidate mentioned that once. that is what vi got to do for the good of america. neil: when we come back, you bailed out gm, now general motors is doling out big bucks to create jobs-in china. the judge on whether shanghai and taxpayer money circ len

is even legal. what's next?

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neil: lindsay lohan arrested again, i do have a be point. there is only one thing as predictable as lindsay in trouble, that is taxpayer money going to places it was never intended. see, that is my point. anyway. general motors with a -- in china. intjudge napolitano, during the bailout, it was never sold with one thing gm would do is open a plan in china, and hire workers in china. >> when government gives you money and is silence on something like going to china, you can go to china, bottom line is gm can go to china. neil: if this was a possibility, do you think it would have been

approved? >> no, no, not by congress, and if approved by tim geithner, congress would have interceded. this is the third rail gm would use, i don't know if they are using federal dole a dollars. probably people who loaned it to federal government when they gave it to gm. >> bondholders, -- >> oh,. neil: they move to the back of the line. >> would you pardon the phrase, they broke the law legally, persuading akin federal bankrupy judge to disallow 200 years of precedent. the night that supreme court was called into a emergency secret session to decide whether or not they would intercede with gm

bankruptcy, they had one night to get involved. the vote of do not get involved. no matter how tortured this is. neil: why? >> they never give a reason, the person i was having dead, said don't ask me. neil: you went to dinner with a supreme court justice? >> i have some friends, you know, you are in my category of friends too. neil: yeah we were at tad's steakhouse and they were closing. >> gm saga is filled with twisting and torturing laws, and avoiding spe economy saiding eve laws by people who are to carry them out. >> they were told, not a lot of layoffs, they went to mitt romney's point, a managed bankruptcy, albeit one backed up

with taxpayer money, and do the very thing now they said they would not do. i have no problem with companies expanding to china, but it was never billed as that. >> do not hold your breath waiting for tim geithner to do something about it or say what you said, even though the president's base, united auto workers, cannot be happy about this the workers in china are not members of the united auto workers union. neil: give them time, you know. union has been fleck flex flexing their muscles. >> hoist es, and they put twin keys out of business. >> you know it. what do you make of this full court post elect press, whether they are, have a real chance to regain status. >> i think they will argue to the president, we did all we

could for you,. neil: he is the reason he got reelectioned. >> now is time you still enjoying the aura of reelection. if they have any courage to stop raising of facts, before that -- taxes before that happens is now when they want to cash in. neil: today in new york city, protesting outside a number of mcdonald's. but, they want to unionize mcdonald's, can you imagine the price of burgers and fries. >> they will do the same thing to mcdonald's as they did to hostess, and they are trying with walmart too. what happened to free market, it used to mean free from government interference. neil: you have lost way too much weight, you are so cut, you are prince valiant of law. neil: you are my idol.

>> -- >> you are my idol. neil: i found the weight you lost. >> you look terrific. >> thank you. neil: business leaders are lining up for white house meetings like planes at la gardia, but do you only get in, if you have already thrown money into democratic campaigns, charlie gasparino with who gets in and why. after this.

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charlie gasparino with the scoop on who got invited and why. >> i thought it was about time they invited people who run small businesses, people who are most targeted by the tax increases. take the fiscal cliff stuff out, obama taxes target small businesses, let's say have you a small, not unreasonable you make around $500,000, you. we like 15 people. you raise their taxes, they will lop off 2 or 3 of those people. neil: who are these small business guys that got in. >> i'm sure some of them have -- you know, listen, not all small businesses are monolithic. neil: who are big business guys. >> lloyd, just so you know, i know him personal, saying how great the president's plan is, ear something like warren

buffet, they made so much money already. what do they care if you take of their taxes a little bit. james gorman that runs morgan stanley, i really like, said put pressure on congress to get a deal done, i am sure that that james would not care if they raised upper rate on people, but morgan stanley still pushing for certain deducts that help business, i would be careful with listening to the quote, unquote corporate. >> we did look at this, we cannot prove a exact number but overwhelming number, either donated or were active supporters of the president, and diagramcrattic party. i -- democratic party, it does skew the audience survey. so they are not going to bad mouth of president, when a couple of people say we think it

should it gives them ammunition. >> this is bologna. bottom line, do you think most small business owners are liberal democrats who want their taxes to increase, that is absurd, this is the dumbest thing i have heard in my life. neil: one had an interesting issue with me, i was out in l.a. yesterday, he used reverse argument. if it means his customers are doing better, he ran a vinyl record company, he said, if it improves things for my customer base, i end up doing better, it is a win-win. >> i don't know, i mean, you really think that taxing him, -- >> i think it helped that he looked like santa claus. >> the beard threw me off. why is raising taxes on small, help his customers? i don't understand --

>> the 98% can thrive. >> you know what. >> wait, stimulus got him going, got the economy off the about what the. his sales have been picking up he has been noticing this trend he said for last year. >> a little cold water for this guy, poor people do not employee people, rich people employee people, my dad of a bartender. he did it on the side, he did it full time when he was out of work. we were about as working class as you get, i need more rich people, those are the people who tip me, poor people do not tip me, to suggestion somehow that taxing rich people, screwing small businesses will be good for average americans just is illogical. okay. it -- >> but it is going to happen. you know, there is a middle ground? >> i don't know, i think that is going to happen, i think we go

off the fiscal cliff. neil: really. >> if republicans cave, first. democrats are not putting anything on the table for cutting you know expenditures, and you know entitlements this is a ruse. if republicans cave, they -- there is a risk of a revolt in the republican party like they have never seen, boehner will be out, i think eric cantor will be out, they are treading on really thin ice, i can not imagine conservatives -- that are you either, intellectuall3 conservative class that speaks on fox news and writes and grassroots, will let this happen, they are going to get nothing, do you really think they are going to gettin gettin? neil: i'll ask the questions. challengcharlie gasparino the b. >> and franklin roosevelty

grandson here. >> social security measure gives at least some protect to 50 millions of our citizens.

>> we had address the drivers of the deficit, social security no not. >> social second has not added one penny to the deficit. >> senaaor reid and others have spoken out we'll not touch any of the entitlement. >> we should take social security off the table. neil: i could have gone on and on, many democrats are scratching any en tea entitlemes

that includes social security, james roosevelt, i am wondering about this democratic resistance, we saw some cracks in that, as we saw republican cracks to taxes. you never know, to not have it on table or see it as necessary to address, it has to even worry a go i like you. >> it is good to be with you, again. yeah. social security should not be part of the deficit and tax discussion, social security did not as was said, did not contribute to the deficit. it is supported by the payroll taxes. that workers and their employers pay. >> you have seen, surveys that show the direct we're going, we -- the direction we're going we have moved its trouble date up, compared to other programs, that

is prestine, my only point is why not put it out there, why not put out medicare, and medicaid and everything, and for republican defense, everything, and rather than pick and choose. >> whether defense, medicare, medicaid, those are out of general revenues, they are in a defendant category. social security, does nida, just need adjustments, it should not be part of solves will deficit. neil: i think what is intrinsic. is what you are not saying. that we're missing an opportunity to address the overall rate of money coming in and money going out. if you want to leave social

security alone, and just look at all of other entitlements and big spending and hear, they say focus it has to be on taxes, i'm not here is a they don't raise taxes on the rich. the elects do have consequences that is one of them, president made that a centerpiece of his election, i think it is fair to say it is it going to happen but follow that with not balancing out without even trimming in the rate worries me, it has to worry you. >> i don't think that there is any reasonable participant on either side of the aisle who does not say you have to deal with both expenditures and revenues. neil: they are only dealing with revenues, that bothers me. a lot of creative ways to come up with money but not save it. >> well, you know we know that 4 things happened after president clinton left offers, we had big

tax cuts, two wars, and a big expansion in mi medicare. neil: and 9/11 and a recession. >> absolutely? and recession that started in last year of a clinton administration. i am saying this, to give a fair and planned portrayal of where we were and where we are, i am here to say, hands in both jars, both parties both to blame. i am wondering, it does not do us any good, as durbin this week said it is time to talk about deficits, he is right. i get worried. >> i think that president is right, we do have to have a balanced approach. >> what would be your balance? >> i think we have a health care cost and quality situation, that needs to be addressed even more

than it is in obamacare. we need to move more quickly to pay for value, to eliminate duplication and waste. neil: james, always great, have a wonderful christmas if i don't talk you to again. >> you too. neil: all right, maybe we'll talk about the brink whether we're on the brink and the cliff. james roosevelt, a classable. >> well now unions have gone too far, tickets at walmart or airport or shipping dock is one thing but going after fast-food. this is war, my friend. this is war.

neil: unions feeling strong. demonstrating a walmart on black friday, now protesting frying to

unionize fast-food joins across new york city, mcdonald's the latest target. watch out there is more to come, what is going on? >> neil, unions are not subject to any truth in advertising laws, here are two big truths they would have to tell the workers they are threatening their jobs and all, union bosses, make all of their money by taking money out of the pockets of those working people. and that is only month they have. -- only money they have, they make 50 or 70 a month out of pockets of working people, they are not telling those people that when they are on the line. secondly. they are not going to be able to double their pay. these are entry level jobs, these are good jobs you can learn a skill, for example, you can learn the skills, i started at my first job was po popcorn e

at a dollar 40 an hour, you can take the skills, and go to other jobs, if you are a manager at walmart, most of managers started stocking shelves they make $250,000 a year. some of them or up, these are people without a college education, this is a great country. neil: i think a lot of people -- you know a lot of these union guys know there is a truth to a lot of what you say. this is does not matter, this is a non-unionized operation. >> they want their money out of their pockets. neil: leaving aside to, that you know, i know everyone has to vilify, walmart chained and change to cash registers and shelves, and they never talk about average folks who get $ 4 prescription drugs or saving a ton of money over day household items, that does not matter; if

it means unionizing mcdonald's you pay $50 for a double quarter pounder, maybe -- >> right. neil: my point it, they don't see the forest through the highest priced trees. >> they don't understand, the same people that are working need to get that upward mobility, they try to take their family out to mcdonald's, insteading paying $20 for a family of 4, if you double wages it will double the price up to $40, to take you're family to mcdonald's that is a stock on working families, -- that's a tax on working families, we need people to understand that these are entry level jobs, you move your way up, you can get good benefits in the job, get good training, this is great for people. these people are -- the unions and big labor bosses are turning off people, you know walmart -- >> i see a method to madness, i

think, they are not the power they used to be but they did get out the vote for barack obama. >> they' payback. neil: they are expecting something in return. >> they will go through the national labor relations board, and try to get things administratively through the backdoor they can not get congress to pass, they will have a very aggressive get out there in the streets, and intim mate, there is directed by labor union, not by the workers who are in there. they come in, they set this up it is about them getting that 50 or 60-dollars a month out of your pocket, out of the work are'workeryy pocket to pocket of big labor bosses, they will have 700 less in their pockets a year if they go with these unions, they will be forced to pay that, and the prices go up and same people who are trying to make a living. >> just warming up.

>> they want payback. neil: always good to see you, thank you very much barbara. >> good to see you. >> they are not characters from marvel or dc comics, but could these guys save dc? >> why they could out too the super powers.

>> the president said there are aspects to governor romney's record and ideas, he could be very helpful, he noted governor romney did a terrific job running the olympics. that could make the federal government work better. >> well, language change after

an election, forget having lunch with mitt romney, how about hiring mitt romney mr. president? make mitt romney the czar of dowdownsizing government. she brought the money to the table. >> i can't help how they spend it, neil. neil: i'm kidding. with you. i think that mitt romney is a billion business guy. losing presidential candidates, we put them out to pasture. there has to be something we did do with these guys, like former day presidents, modern day avengers or something. >> we have to admit that mitt

romney knows, only thing that obama defense praise him i thought he ran the olympics well. >> coi condescending. >> it was. >> and for lunch, sandwiches what? neil: turkey chili. i think -- i don't know what purpose was. i like it when they coming it afterwards, and shake hands, and i know they hate each other. can you imagine if you are mitt romney, i don't know what i do now, but i know half of the people in the country voted for me. >> this president is a masterful politician, we all disagree with his policies here. but we have to report his political savvy. if we give governor mitt romney a cabinet position it would be

lincolnesque. famous forgives political rivals cabinet positions, does it happen, no. but he wants to make -- >> you don't think he was offered anything? >> i do not, if he offered governor romney a position, it would turn the perception of hissing see upside down, he is concerned about his legacy. >> i think that the times is odd. with so much pressure about fiscal cliff. neil: what do you mean? >> look at timing it looks like that obama is really appearing to really work with the republican, really reaches out. neil: he did a number of things that make it seem that way, i might consider raising taxes not up to clinton rate, i might look at spending issues now. >> he will want to raise taxes, but he will consider looking at some spending cuts, but not deep enough to where it will matter.

neil: overture? we -- this is not announced but just rumors, we might not have to go back up to highest clinton rate, we could split the difference. >> i just don't see with him holding so much, i do not see -- i think it is inevitable we might either fall off the cliff or it will be up until the deadline. neil: you know the value by the way, in bringing more republicans under your cabinet? is that you not only think about your legacy, you really are trying to move the ball forward. you start putting republicans to your cabinet or those uniquely skilled to do etch and everything in your cabinet, we know what happens when you don't have the right people. >> what is best for this country is what matters the most, i have

to say, i believe that they met today just to get it over and done with with what they said they would getting it right after the election. you know if this president, was confident, i do believe he is. he would hire someone like -- >> like a cheap -- just like wall street, we never said we didn't like the president, live the president. >> like walmart approach, they give on one side, the other side no matter who wins. >> you are getting scared he going after you. >> what governor mitt romney would make a great secretary of treasury. >> a stupid job. >> really. neil: it is. >> i think they could do a tremendous amount of good, i believe we do not have the right person in that position right now. neil: you do not think that the

turkey lunch was it. that is it just it? >> i don't believe so,. neil: i president's club, i was reading, and it really is -- a great resource. say what you will of former presidents, but they have held this unique office and have a unique vantage point. nothing like running for president, there has to be a way to tap that or utilize that even worse performing of presidential candidates, has a way to connect with people than any industry leader. >> and neil, you have a point, i think he should utilize. neil: shocking isn't it? >> it is. i think that obama if he were smart, would utilize mitt romney, mitt romney really knows could. i think that -- knows business, and i think that obama has a

certain respect. obama is not a businessman. he is an idea log. i think by him doing something to reach out to mitt romney other than a turkey chili lunch, whatever. neil: they had cold cuts. >> and cold cuts. >> i'm thinking like salmon or something elegant, are you going to eat that. >> yeah, look at my office that you do not get, and how about a coil cut. neil: did you see that? like, looky there what do you think of the color scheme, not up to you. >> track records speak for themselves, mitt romney has a track record of great things. neil: look at, that. >> in oval offers. >> romney just within inches of the desk. >> when i worked for giuliani, romney was running, he has been running for a long time.

neil: do you think he runs again. >> i do not. neil: who do the think? >> 2016 rubio, and chris christie, a lot of people that a lot of big donors begged to run. neil: tom you are running? >> not yet. >> talk to me. >> when he come back, we have a ton of twitter followers, count john mccain, as one of them. we'lhe tweeted at me about me tt created a sensation.